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Änderungen im Jungle

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    Änderungen im Jungle

    Hey, ich hab das selber nicht so richtig mitbekommen und habe hier auf Readmore auch noch nichts groß drüber gelesen.
    Da es im LoL thread untergeht mach ich nen eigenen thread drüber, wozu haben wir das Forum ;)

    Also RiotGuinsoo (ehemaliger Dota-entwickler) schreibt folgendes zu den Changes:
    Spoiler: 

    The main problem with the slow on Lizard is that it means if you get caught by it overextended, you die. A haste will make it so that that man can kill you, not that man's team can kill you (if you get caught).

    This is an integral cog in increasing early game activity (knowing you're not GUARANTEED to die if you get caught out of position means you can be more aggressive), making the jungle more accessible to low level summoners, making the jungle less sensitive to counter jungling (right now it's too big of a swing if you get counter jungled, although I will concede this is the weakest point in the system that needs to be solved), allowing more champions to jungle, making Smite less necessary, allowing non-jungle champions to jungle more (in other words allow role flexibility WITHIN a game not just between games), and probably at least half a dozen major goals as well, and for actually increasing skill differentiation within the jungle.

    One of my major problems with the jungle right now is that due to the long respawn timers, there actually is little choice for the player - you have a set route and you gank (generally) when your jungle is clear. There are times when you vary this, but for the most part this is what you do. We'd like to make it so that at all given points, junglers have more interesting choices for what they want to do - should I level up, gank, invade, etc? Ideally they'd all be more valuable for actually doing, but have a higher opportunity cost for doing so - in other words they're all good options but you have to pick what would be most advantageous for your team.

    I agree that some champions are hit harder by the loss of slow on Lizard than others (Master Yi for example) but in general those champions are the ones that are going to benefit most from the other side of this coin - reducing monster spawns and making so that if you just sit and farm your jungle, you will earn more resources. In general it will work out, and we can tune the cases that don't.

    Also, the jungle is hard enough right now such that we have to make champions basically OP to succeed in the jungle - see Warwick, Udyr.
    OK, let me try to address a few key issues that I think there is a lot of concern about.

    First, the interaction between red buff and overextending. I don't believe that overextending shouldn't cause you to die. By definition, overextending means you extended too far, and so this is a relative term. What I think we want to do here is adjust what overextending is to some degree, but more importantly, to allow and encourage lane pushing. The biggest issue here is that it's bad to push, when that should in reality be the main objective. I think it's fine if pushing is sometimes good, but having it rarely or never be good (as is the case now) is not. This is a complex problem, but it is telling to me that destroying a lot of turrets causes a game to snowball hard, but pushing a turret is still almost always bad.

    Wards do help, but they will never change the fact that pushing early is bad, which is something we'd like to change (at least make it a reasonable option). Others have noted how streamers push their lane, retreat to the turret, and alt tab sometimes. Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into this, not just wards and Lizard. Some champions can also bypass wards to some degree when ganking like Rammus and Evelynn. We just want to adjust what the definition of overextending is, rather than making it so that champions that overextend survive too often.

    Second, I should stress that I don't feel changing of Lizard buff is mandatory to this goal. It technically was the last change on the list and is least important to the goals in my opinion. Having said that, if possible, it allows us to free up a lot of other things. For example I don't think we can do much with Flash considering how integral it is to ranged carries without a change to Lizard buff. I cannot get into too much detail, but our experiences creating other maps (including Twisted Treeline) leads us to believe that having Lizard with a slow is bad. I do believe that we cannot change or remove Flash without a change to Lizard, as well.

    I do also think that there are some other small issues that play into this that we'll have to solve - for example I think early death timers may be too long with these changes, minions deal too much damage to champions (attackers are going to need to be able to fight back against mages and tanks), sending a champion back to base isn't enough reward, early solo kills may cause lanes to snowball a bit too much. These are all small adjustments that we could make if necessary. Any would probably be good changes, though.

    Third, I do not want to make ganks not happen. I want to make a Lizard buff not a guaranteed kill if you're too far from a turret, and I just want it to be a bit weaker than it is now. I know this seems bad at first glance, but consider this in tandem with all of the other things that are being discussed in the set of changes. If players are more incented to push, and not as worried about being guaranteed to die, and have more trouble farming under their own turret, they will be more likely to push (as turrets are worth a lot of gold) so I don't think ganks will be as difficult as people think. Also, remember that these are all in general fairly small changes, so it will hopefully be a bunch of small changes effecting the change we want (reduced early passivity is the general goal). While Lizard being a haste on the jungler will be a little bit weaker of a gank, it means he can get to the lanes faster, gank more often, feint ganks on lanes and go elsewhere, farm the jungle faster, defend lanes faster, and still be significantly more effective than a non-buffed jungler gank. This seems like it should open up more options for junglers than what exist now, which is a more focused scenario in that when you catch an enemy exposed, unwarded, and with Lizard you have a high likelihood to kill them; but if any of those fail you probably fail to gank. I would rather see more of the skill be in how manuevers be executed, than how well you deny the jungler opportunities to gank you by skillfully 'losing' your lane.

    Fourth, I want to stress once again that yes, this will be hard. I already consider it the hardest task I've ever undertaken as a designer. It is definitely necessary to consider the changes holistically; they are very much intertwined. I agree that the biggest two concerns with the entire approach are that changing red buff could change the game too much and make ganks too difficult, and that counterjungling will be invalidated. I don't want to invalidate counterjungling, but I do want counterjungling to be a little less sharp and harmful. Please stress the word a little. As far as red buff, as I noted above I'm not tied to it at all, and if it does ruin the game too much, I'm not at all opposed to moving the slow back (and probably reducing it a little early in the game, and honestly I don't even know if it still needs the melee/ranged difference, but unsure). But like I said, our experience with other maps leads us to believe that removing the slow will be beneficial. I know we have it on Twisted Treeline, but when we designed the map it was the least offensive option available with the tech we had available, which has since grown.

    This is a long time away from going in, in fact we have not even tested it yet (except in single player). There is *no doubt* a lot of tuning to come. It's still entirely possible that pieces or the entirety will not ever ship. Random edited note - this is not affecting Twisted Treeline.
    I get the privilege of working with Guinsoo on a daily basis, and I just want to reiterate that this is incredibly early in the iteration process. I'm sure Guinsoo will correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that this is in the scope of months, not a "next patch" or "the patch after" thing.

    A lot of people don't even consider how this impacts things like lane selection. One of the reasons that there's such a huge "fight" over mid lane is that a) it's easier to passively farm and b) it's easier to avoid ganks. One flash and you're already back into turret range. It's not that people really want mid lane - it's that they don't want the passive "sit and do nothing" of the top and bottom lanes.

    Because of current jungling, the early-game meta-game is "play safe or get ganked, unless you're in the middle." The comp in top or bottom that gets pushed to their own tower should be put at a significant disadvantage, but it rarely turns out that way.

    Again, these changes are in the scope of months, not days or weeks. It's important that we collect feedback early.

    Ich hab es von hier:
    http://runeterra.com/forums/index.php?topic=4054.0
    (runterscrollen zu jungle changes)

    der wiederum hat es aus dem Q&A, das guinsoo hier beantwortet:
    http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/9477/?p=1

    TL,dr
    1. Junglen soll leichter werden und somit für mehr champions zugänglich
    2. Redbuff soll nicht mehr slowen, weil sonst fast sicherer Death
    3. Creeps sollen schneller respawnen

    Was dnekt ihr drüber?
    Werdet ihr weiterhin junglen?
    Jetzt anfangen zu junglen?

    #2
    find ich schwachsinn, weil der jungle jetzt schon ziemlich einfach is :s

    Kommentar


      #3
      das mit dem redbuff find ich gut so und die kürzeren spawnzeiten auch weil es das ganze variabler macht
      junglen leichter machen find ich nicht ganz so gut aber irgendwie einsteigerfreundlicher vllt.
      das ist aber denke ich durch kürzere spawnzeiten schon gegeben, weil man nicht im vorraus eine route planen muss
      oder auch einfach nen schweren creep am anfang weglassen kann (die geister zB) weil die hunde schon respawned sind

      Kommentar


        #4
        IMO Richtige Entscheidung,Jungle im Moment is schon recht langweilig

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          #5
          hm, finds eigentlich schon ganz gut, dass junglen ist bislang ohnehin schon sehr festgefahren. nur wenn der redbuff nicht mehr slowt, wirds natürlich für einige champs ziemlich hart überhaupt zu ganken.

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            #6
            unnötig

            1. wenn man zu weit vorne steht ist man selbst schuld
            2. jungle is ok wie er ist und nicht jeder champ sollte jungeln können
            3. respawnzeit ist ok da man währenddessen eh ganken/shoppen/counterjungeln geht

            wird wieder mal nur casual gemacht

            Kommentar


              #7
              man kann ja mit jedem champion junglen nur halt unterschiedlich schnell :)

              Kommentar


                #8
                Warwicks pre 6 Gank ist halt nichtmehr vorhanden ohne Redbuff. ;(

                Kommentar


                  #9
                  find ich knorke, jungle gerne :D

                  Kommentar


                    #10
                    Zitat von heavy
                    Warwicks pre 6 Gank ist halt nichtmehr vorhanden ohne Redbuff. ;(
                    selbst auf 6 kannst nun nur ganken wenn die gegner relativ low sind. davor konntest noch schön mit red chasen, nun laufen sie dir einfach weg.

                    //zum thema "zu weit vorne stehen", finde es schon besser dass die aggressiveren spieler damit unterstützt werden und dieses dumme "wave klären und ab an den eigenen tower" nicht mehr so stark zum vorschein kommt.

                    Kommentar


                      #11
                      red buff änderung eher unnötig.
                      das andere stimmt natürlich schon irgendwo, udyr oder ww sind einfach zu stark auf der lane, und man ist zu stark auf wriggles angewiesen. mit wriggles hat praktisch keiner mehr probleme im jungle, wenn man aber einen fulltank wie amumu oder auch rammus ohne wriggles junglet, hat man nach der 1. oder 2. runde schon starke probleme.
                      aber ka, die änderungen können auch nach hinten losgehen - wenn man mit "dps" junglern wie yi, tryndamere etc durch den schnellen respawn sehr viel farmen kann und dabei auch noch sicher ist, wär das noch langweiliger

                      Kommentar


                        #12
                        finds gut

                        bringt abwechslung rein und macht junglen -> vllt dynamischer
                        und wenn noch mehr helden dadurch junglen können oder man als solo top/mid auch ein paar creeps nehmen kann wär es doch perfekt

                        Kommentar


                          #13
                          Zitat von StallioN
                          Zitat von heavy
                          Warwicks pre 6 Gank ist halt nichtmehr vorhanden ohne Redbuff. ;(
                          selbst auf 6 kannst nun nur ganken wenn die gegner relativ low sind. davor konntest noch schön mit red chasen, nun laufen sie dir einfach weg.

                          //zum thema "zu weit vorne stehen", finde es schon besser dass die aggressiveren spieler damit unterstützt werden und dieses dumme "wave klären und ab an den eigenen tower" nicht mehr so stark zum vorschein kommt.
                          Problem where? Werden die Wards rausgepatcht oder hab ich was verpasst? Sry, aber wer unbedingt uberaggressive spielen will, der kann sich dann auch gern nen Ward kaufen oder zwei - braucht dann auch keine Angst zu haben, dass er die Hucke voll kriegt.

                          Bei WW muss ich dir allerdings recht geben. Ohne Red, keine krassen WW-Pre6-Ganks. Mir stinken die geplanten Änderungen (sofern sie so, bzw. so ähnlich kommen), finds nämlich gut wies ist.

                          Kommentar


                            #14
                            ich muss auch sagen, dass ich den jungle gut finde so wie er ist, und nicht verstehe, warum die änderungen jetzt sein müssen.

                            Kommentar


                              #15
                              Zitat von Jude
                              unnötig

                              1. wenn man zu weit vorne steht ist man selbst schuld
                              2. jungle is ok wie er ist und nicht jeder champ sollte jungeln können
                              3. respawnzeit ist ok da man währenddessen eh ganken/shoppen/counterjungeln geht

                              wird wieder mal nur casual gemacht
                              da kann man nichts mehr hinzufügen

                              Kommentar

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